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TOPIC: 4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite

4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 3 weeks ago #613

Just saw this project, fully working. 4 electrical engines, foldable frame:

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4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 3 weeks ago #614

While PDWhite is silent about components used, let's observe carefully what the 4K detailed footage can tell us:

Motor: quite sure that it is DUALSKY GA6000.8 180kv (or 160 kv) 6.8kW. Max thrust (hope continuous)18kg@12S,125A 24x10Prop.($232) - 4x232=$928
Prop: Probably Gemfan 22x10 Wood Electric Propeller ($13) or some kind of 24x10 - 4x$13 = $52
Batteries: Pretty sure 4x Multistar 20Ah, 10C, 6S (perhaps in series to get 12S2P matching motor 50V, 40Ah) - $150x4 = $600
ESCs: Perhaps something like AeroStar Advance 150A HV (6~12S) Brushless ESC Opto ($127) - 4x$127 = $508
Total = $2088 without shipping. Plus all the additional things like CF frame and stuff. Actually, not that bad!

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Last Edit: by Madars.

4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 3 weeks ago #618

Hi Madars,
thanks for your analysis, it is much appreciated!
However, I would not say, that PDWhite "is silent" about the components used...
If you read the comments under his video and watch the video itself closely, he is announcing that he is planning to tell us more about the components and his built in the next video, and that he is even planning on releasing the CAD files of the frame as open source.

If you're interested in that, too, I suggest to go his youtube channel and hit "subscribe" and also comment his video that you are interested. The more interest, the more likely he is to put more effort in his built. I am sure.

He doesn't even know about this forum, so I will post a link into the comments of his video.

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4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 3 weeks ago #619

@Madards, since you seem to know quite well what you are talking about, may I ask for your opinion how easy (or difficult) it is to control those four electric engines?

A quadcopter control board needs to control all four engines individually, based on the pitch, orientation and direction it wants to fly.
For that electrical PPG frame, all four engines "just" need to run at the same speed.

What would one need for that, just batteries, a potentiometer (built into a nice thumb-throttle) and one single ESC ?
there needs to be also some sort of control board, that takes the input from the potentiometer and outputs the control signal to the ESC ?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Madars

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4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 3 weeks ago #620

Yep in general these parts are correct. I definitely not trying to be silent about it. It's just that I don't want to be throwing name and parts that aren't going to work or be optimal motors, props or esc. I just don't want people going out and buying something that's works ok but not the best and have an ok experience or having to buy something again. Or just like the props they are gemfan 22x10 but if people just go out and buy those it's not going to be the best experience because they need CCW props to and those are harder to get ahold of and if you can find them for $13 please let me know. I'm going to be releasing the second video today so keep an eye out and I hope you guys had a Merry Christmas
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wannabeaflyer, E-wing, Paul in Oz, simpliflyer, Madars

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Openppg

4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 3 weeks ago #621

@Pdwhite, Thank you. My intention was to guess the parts that are visible from the movie just for others to know what the existing (and really flying) setup could be, as this info was not added in description section (quite as I am used to see, watching general drone footages). I absolutely agree with you, entry users should not be aware of the real setup and it is completely worth it to wait until you release the first “stable” version. I am sorry for leaving that comment. It’s gone : )

Surely, I am interested in your project! Some months ago I have had my own ideas of designing the foldable multi-rotor EPPG concept. While those still remains on the sheet of paper, you have built a real thing and flown a first ever demo flight. It’s awesome!

Thank you for your joining this community. I hope to see your project succeeding soon and no doubts any other user here is willing the same.

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4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 3 weeks ago #622

@simpliflyer, well, I guess there is 2 options - the easy way and not that easy…

If we compare the multi-rotor EPPG concept with multi-rotor drone, both of them have the same propulsion system (battery, electronic speed controller (ESC), motor and propeller). However, they have completely different flight regimes. In drone case, the flight controller’s role is to control all the motors in such a way that they hold and move the whole drone as pilot desires. Here in EPPG that functionality is not needed, because paraglider’s flight completely differs from drone flight.

Generally, you want all the motors spin in the same configuration as for quad-rotor drone but only at the same speed, producing symmetric thrust.
Simplest method doing this is controlling all four ESCs with one signal. Every motor has to have its own ESC, but all the signal wires are joined (it is not possible to control multiple motors trough one ESC unless you want to burn the things down. Think of it as a whole - Motor+ESC. Motor itself is just a half of the system).

Though, in reality, things are not that simple and the multi-rotor EPPG system should have the controller. Think of what would happen if you burn one of the motors mid air? Any speed difference between one motor and remaining ones would lead to asymmetric thrust and EPPG frame starts moving around some or all rotating axles - a situation you physically can’t get flying ordinary gas PPG.
So the real way to go would be making a controller that is able to control every motor’s speed separately. In normal flight it would spin all the motors according to the throttle position but in case of failure, keep the general symmetry of thrust. For example, If one of your right motor dies, controller reduces both of the left side motors total thrust to match that one remaining right side thrust. So you would end up getting 50% of the max thrust, still having ability to land/keep flying in emergency mode.

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Last Edit: by Madars.

4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 2 weeks ago #629

Hi guys , just wanted to welcome PD white to the forum will be great to have the diversity and increase the knowledge base of this growing forum . I'm no expert far from it so take this notion with a pinch od salt as would need to do a lot research into the feasibility and practicalities of making it work .. the concept is to do with Madars 2nd option regarding quad motor control in the event of a motor failing etc ..
her e goes no laughing .. the thought was throttle demand signal could go to each ESC via a Micro controller ( Our Mate the Arduino ?? ) which is then in turn passed onto each ESC .. Each Motor speed would be monitored via maybe hall sensors or directly from the input to the individual motor leads these could then form part of a feedback loop to the Microprocessor to regulate the individual speeds.. to the level required by the pilot ..
in the event of failure the micro would sense the speed difference and a formula of some kind would re-distribute the control signals accordingly ..

I will admit I am just trying to walk through how I perceive Madars suggestion being implemented without rocket science , and will need to look at Rpm Counting options on the ard's , Multiplexing and defining the controller ESC speed distribution Inputs in the event a failure ..

I have recently started to look at the Ardunino's again to get back up to speed , not for my E-One version But maybe its something I could contribute to the forum in some way ..

This is another great topic you guys have started .. Looking forward to more Videos Pdwhite ...Thanks for Joining this forum :-)

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4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 2 weeks ago #630

Hi Paul
I too give you a warm welcome to e-ppg. Since I sent you a note via YouTube I've been taking a closer look at Fusion 360. Helluva program! And pretty cool that they allow a free license for students, hobbyists / non commercial use. Though I have to upgrade my computer because it's a bit short of the minimum system requirements. Are you still planning on uploading the files? I'm playing catchup here but there seems to be a cloud based method within F360 of project and file sharing that would work well. On the subject of props, CW & CCW matched pairs, in this forum I was put onto vrtule-fiala.cz/en/electro-e3-propellers-49 by Simon. They do some very nice matched wooden props. The two I bought came in very cheap and good quality, they let me pay via PayPal. Made and shipped to me in Australia pretty quickly too.
Regards, Paul in Oz.

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Last Edit: by Paul in Oz.

4-engine electric PPG - PDWhite 8 months 1 week ago #631

Wannabeflyer -- Great idea with the Arduino. Not to tangent/infringe on this thread but I think the Eone is going to be a viable conversion kit for a time long to come -- I think there are alot of folks out there, me included, that are going to want to go with with a single electric motor kit to transform our current rigs is a great option. A single electric motor rig reliability is far better then any gaser out their IMHO
Happy New Years to everyone

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Last Edit: by E-wing.
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